Kenneth
Joined: 25 Apr 2003
Posts: 1
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:26 am Post subject: Senate Hearings
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When did the Senate Hearings into dialysis take place? What was the purpose of the hearings, which I understand completey exposed what goes on in dialysis units, if the govt was not going to do anything. It would seem they'd want it covered up -- so why expose it but then do nothing?
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Worker Bee
Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 28
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 6:13 am Post subject: Kenneth
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Kenneth,<
> The Senate hearings took place 3 years ago and as yet, none of the promised made at that time have been fulfilled.<
>Funny that you ask this question as Arlene and I were just talking about this very same thing earlier this week. Our conclusion was that yes, the hearings did expose all the problems going on in the dialysis industry, but that not only does the govenment know what is going on and has known for years, but that the hearings were done and promises made to get us off their backs. It gave the Senators some nice microphone time, to impress to all of us how "concerned" they were about this "problem" and to promise not only Standards of Care in 6 months, for which we are still waiting, but also to promise even more investigations. <
>My conclusion to all this, for what it is worth, is that the U.S. Govenment not only intended never to do anything, they were also fully informed about all the problems and by turning a blind eye, have done what can only be called Sanctioned Terrorism to the very group of U.S. citizens who depend on their govenment to protect them and hear their voices. In doing so OUR GOVERNMENT has created an situation not unlike Hitler's Houlocost. Our govenment is more concerned bout Iraqi lives than the lives, civil and constitional rights of it's very own citizens! :">
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ptsw
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 24
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 8:00 am Post subject: Please
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Can you do one thing? Stop the comparison. There is no comparision of dialysis treatment to the Holocaust where a group of Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, etc. were rounded up because they weren't the Aryan race, sent to concentration camps and gased, tourtured or shot. All dialysis patients are dialyzed, they are not selected as appropriate for dialysis like before 1972 or like current day in Europe and Asia.
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brenda
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Posts: 103
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 8:09 am Post subject: hey ptsw
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its so sad to say but the Government does care more aobut the people in foreign countries then they do the ones here. Were sending medical personal and funding over ther, yet can't get quality care for the Americans. It is a matter of pick and choose who lives. Not all patients are dialized---if you have been reading here some of them have held treatment refused til they so called "cooperate." Perhaps social workers like you should get a little bit more involved and see why the patients are afarid to speak out for themselves and why they fear for their lives.
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As usual
Joined: 25 Apr 2003
Posts: 1
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 8:54 am Post subject: ptsw
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you show your ignorance of the issues. Have you ever been on a dialysis chair? Then maybe you don't know what you're talking about when you say the dialysis situation shouldn't be compared to Nazi Germany. Sorry, but I do occupy a chair and its a holcaust to my family that my life is contnually in danger due to the abuse and negligence I get at my center. We all know who you are ptsw--INDUSTRY!
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Pollyanna
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Posts: 22
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 12:54 pm Post subject: Comparisons to the Holocaust?
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<
>Sorry ptsw,<
> There are real comparisons to Hitler's Holocaust in what is going on in the dialysis industry today.<
>Instead of targeting Jews, Gypsies, and homosexuals, anyone who has ESRD is a target. In the southern states, African American patients are especially targeted in the clinics there.<
>We don't have to round up ESRD patients into concentration camps. If the majority of these patients want to continue to live, they must report to the outpatient clinics for dialysis 3 times a week. Not everyone has access to or is capable of doing home hemo.<
>The way many staff treats patients in the units can be compared to prison guards. It their way or the highway. In many units, patients have no rights.<
>If a patient questions any portion of their treatment, they can and are often labeled troublesome and many have been dumped from units, therefore a sentence of death. In the concentration camps, you were just shot, gassed, or starved to death.<
>The world turned a blind eye to what Hitler was doing for how many years until they were forced to see what was really going on? Then England and the U.S. and other European countries banded together against Hitler and his gang of butchers and STOPPED the HOLOCAUST!<
> Our Government who pays for each and every ESRD patient to receive treatment turns a blind eye to the treatment of those patients and even with the Senate hearings of 3 years ago, still has not done anything to stop the "Sanctioned Terrorism" these patients have experienced. <
> And now they want to take away your right to an advocate of your choice if you are too ill to advocate for yourself. That means your family would not be able to advocate or speak up for you at all. If you die, no autopsy or investigation into your death, just off to the funeral home and embalming or cremation before anyone can start asking pertinent questions or test for anything that may not be "natural causes". <
>Senator Grassley told Brent Smith that if he was harassed, threatened, or any harm came to him for testifying at the Senate hearings, those people would be made to answer for it. Well 2 years later Brent was dead and those Senators didn't do anything at all! They turned a blind eye then and still do now.<
>And this is the Govenment that is suposed to take care of it's own people!<
><
>How many people were killed in those concentration camps in the space of those years and compare to how many ESRD patient have died over the last 30 years? The demand for dialysis is going up and the dialysis chairs are always full. No one chair is empty long enough to get cold. This is the American Holocaust, thanks to our Govenment.<
><
>The dialysis industry has fine-tuned its profit making from ESRD patients. Medicare and your own private insurance are charged as much as possible. Recently in the financial report in 1 of the major dialysis magazines, (Dialysis Issues and Transplantation) RCG was reported to be proud of the fact that the majority of it's profit is from re-selling EPO to their customers, the patients! Hitler reprocessed everything, gold fillings, clothing, other belongings and even his captive's hair to sell! <
><
>An example: A company I worked for, a non-profit, charged about $3500.00 a month to provide dialysis 3 times a week. When they sold out to a for profit, those monthly charges went up dramatically in the next 6 months. The bills I was shown were for $9000.00, then 12,000.00 then the last one I was shown was up to nearly $20,000 a month! When those patients called Medicare to report what they were seeing and asked why Medicare was paying so much, they were ignored and told that Medicare did not "see" anything out of the ordinary! That's our tax dollars at work people!<
><
>So ptsw, this is only the tip of the iceberg so to speak. Don't know what kind of history you learned in school, but I do see many comparisons of what is going on in the dialysis industry today and Hitler's concentration camps during WW2. <
>
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say what
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Posts: 29
/> Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 1:10 pm Post subject: You may want to compare it to slavery? Flesh for $
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Maybe you like the word "chattel" or "cash cow",or maybe you like slave.<
><
>Denial is great when you are not the one that is getting inadequate dialysis. Maybe you chose to be ignorant.<
><
>The fact is that dialysis in the United States is a shame. Lets talk about patient contracts for no other reason than the patient is to vocal.<
><
> Lets talk about the fact that the patient has no where to go to seek help.<
><
> Lets talk about how patients are not told the truth about reuse.<
><
> Lets talk about the price of $100,000 dollars for a patient to the doctors for their patients and lets talk about the stock price.<
><
>Lets talk how some companies back in 1998 under a non-profit was charging 3500 dollars a month for the works. <
><
>Lets talk about in 1999 they went in most cases to 11,000 a month.Profit clinic<
><
>Lets talk about now today its about 21,000 dollars a month for the same treatments as 1998. Epo included.<
><
>Lets talk about the lack of patient training and patient education. God forbid if a patient knows more than the staff.<
><
>Lets talk about a chemical that the patients are not given a choice and sign papers giving their permission to re-use a artificial kidney that was previously labeled as single use only. Why would a patient be told that you stand a better chance of dying from reuse and what a deal they tell you is that you can now have something that is only 80% efficient and is cleaned with deadly chemicals. Why would you sign that paper when you can have 100% efficiency and NO chemicals,only it cost the clinics more. Patients have a choice and can choose no reuse,and can cancel out that contract. You do have a choice. But the fact is that they make much money off dirty used dializers.<
><
>Lets talk about no patient rights and self policing of the industry.<
><
>Lets talk about the reality that is for many patients. Patients who speak up in many clinics are the
avest people in the world. Courage is found only when you have a patient who will question the authority of these clinics. <
><
>
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Coil
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Posts: 27
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 1:49 pm Post subject: My opinion
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Let me say first off, that perhaps my opinion isn't valid for two reasons. First, and most important, I am not a patient. Second, I'm Canadian.<
><
> I started in dialysis as a tech in '78, back when you needed a college degree as a minimum to get the job. So while I can bore your ears off about how and why your machine works, I can't tell you how it feels to sit in the chairs hooked to the machine. And being Canadian, I have little experience with a profit driven system. SO, like I said, that may very well render my opinion invalid. <
><
>On the other hand, as the child of two holocaust survivors, I can't not give my opinion on this discussion. While the dialysis system is a terribly flawed beast, it is in the end a system designed to save lives. Bear in mind, I am talking about the theoretical system, not the actuality. In practice, it may be staffed by thieves and idiots, but it is still designed to keep people alive. Yes the staff may be abusive and cruel and ignorant, but they are still supposed to be saving lives. (I use the word 'may' in the sentences above, because I am speaking of the entire dialysis medical community, and not all of them are rotten. ) They can and do kill patients through errors and ignorance, but the system will catch the majority that kill on purpose. As I said it is designed to save lives.<
><
>The Nazi industry was geared towards taking lives, as many as possible, no matter the cost. And I'm sorry if I offend any readers here, I cannot believe that a lifetime of poor dialysis can equal watching your family be murdered in front of your eyes.<
><
>I let the original comment go, because I did not wish to open a can of worms, but I had to voice my opinion, after the discussion got ugly. I am not in any way saying that patients get good treatment, however, I do not feel comparing it to the holocaust is a justified comparison. If forced to come up with a comparison, I would compare it to the treatment of African Americans in the first part of this century, and to this day for that matter. Again, however, I am not of African descent, so my opinion cannot be based on experience only theory.<
><
>I said at the very beginning why my opinion may not be valid here, mainly to save people the energy of having to respond and tell me I don't know what it feel's like. It's much the same way that, although I've spent most of my life learning about the holocaust, I cannot tell you what it felt like to survive the holocaust.<
><
>I guess the point of my rant is simply, that the holocaust is too terrible a thing to compare dialysis in the US to. For all it's glaring flaws, they are still keeping you alive when you dialyze. And with that, I will shut up, and wait for the reaction. Thanks,
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Good Point
Joined: 25 Apr 2003
Posts: 1
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 3:15 pm Post subject: Canadian vs American
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Coil,<
> You made some good points, but as you said, you work in the Canadian Dialysis setting.<
> The point I think is that the American government has the capacity to right these wrongs and make our dialysis system the best in the world, but chooses not to and we are all asking WHY!<
> Compare what is going on to slavery or the holocaust, either one will do. The point is that we should value human life so much that we will do all that is needed to make this the best dialysis program for the patient, not just how much the companies can make off ESRD. Our tax dollars are being wasted and the govenment needs to be accountable for the waste and get dialysis back on track for all American patients.<
><
>P.S. Yes, it keeps them alive, but we do watch our patients slowly fail, then die. It's just a lot slower than the Holocaust.
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Welcome
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 1
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 4:29 am Post subject: How is Canada set up
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The difference is that in Canada you are given treatments that are adequate and you can actually have a quality of life. Money does not enter into it.<
><
>In the United States, it is a profit set up as this as stated many times before is not about health care in many of these for profit company. Ask anyone who worked in a non-profit and taken over from the profits. Its called "squeeze the buffalo" off the nickle. <
><
>The part that is bad in the United States is that the money is furnished to go towards the patients treatment. U.S pays like does Canada. But the difference is that the physicians unlike any other doctor can profit and are not accountable on how the treatment is run, nor are they held accountable for doing harm to the patient.No one until recently is even shut down. I think the current number is 3. I am talking major health issues.<
><
>In Canada,it seems like you are trained and know what your doing. It doesnt appear that you have 15 minutes to take a patient off and put another patient on. If a patients blood pressure is low,scoot the chair out and put a new chair in for the next patient. As with a 15 minute turnaround is not even priming the kidney for the right amount of time.You have anywhere from 4-6 patients. Workers burn out and new ones are "earn" as you learn.With the clinics training and no standards.If a patient dies due to an error,the patient is sent to the funeral home of choice and is not reported to be investigated. Here in Oregon,before we came along,the clinics were inspected once every 10 years,now it is yearly.<
><
>In the United States the statistics are given to the industry on the honor system from these clinics,as they are not validated in full. We have nurses who have filled in the blanks after the Senate Hearings where the death tolls (according the GAO) were 3 years behind in reporting.<
><
>If a patient dies in a unit due to training errors or not checking to see if the chemical is out of the kidney and the patient dies nothing is done,until someone calls the Dept of Health and reports it. Under the current system the training of these workers
is that they dont know they are doing harm. The company is not held accountable.<
><
>In Canada do you report to harm or problems that you have in the units to the industry. In the United States the complaint goes back to the ESRD NETWORK who are the industry and vote each other in. They are a private non profit organization who has won the contract to police themselves and report back to the government. They vote each other in as then all companies are represented. It clearly has not worked out for the patients. Patients complain and I will say with an accuracy giving them the benefit of the doubt,they side with the industry 90% of the time. Even when patients are dumped as the crime may be expecting their rights as human beings. They are clearly at a disadvantage.<
><
>Canada what is the complaint set up? Does the company make more money the more patients they put on in an 8 hr day. What is your quality of life? <
><
>These are issues that have not been addressed. As the industry is entrenched in DC with key players in DC ie: Thomas Scully that is now under Tommy Thompson in a key position. He was under federal investigation with DaVita since 1998. Our Federal investigations found that this group of patients are afraid of retaliation and the industry is self policing and the patients in many cases have no say.<
><
>In Canada are the physicians payed a monthly fee and then add items on the Medicare bill to make more money.<
><
>I really appreciate your being here on the board and would love to have your thoughts.<
>Arlene
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